David Cameron calls Gordon Brown "petty" for mentioning the fact that he and his shadow cabinet seems to be comprised of toffs who went to the most expensive public schools.
This, according to Dave, is "class warfare". Dave says "it doesn't matter what school a chap went to.....It's policy and priority that matter..."
Aye. Well. Up to a point, Lord Copper.
Of course it doesn't matter what school any particular individual went to: even Eton will produce the occasional outstanding individual. But when half the Shadow cabinet went to the same school, at the same time, and then went to the same university at the same time, and while at university they were all members of the same club at the same time, and then the went and joined the same party at the same time, and now we are supposed to swallow the argument that these half-a-dozen blokes that went to the same school, university, club at the same time are, by some miracle, the half-a-dozen people in the country best qualified to form the next government....
It does stretch credulity a teeny bit, does it not?
If me and the other alumni of Gasswork Comprehensive 1972 were to come along and make a similar claim, what would the Tory press say? What would George and Dave say?
"Oiks" would be the least of it, I fear.
Then we would find out what class warfare really is.....
...Does anyone remember "Gorbals Mick"...?
When the sheet metal worker from Shettleston had the temerity to rise above his station and become Speaker of the toffs' own (they believe)Parliament, to the rage of certain Tories? Now that was nasty. That was class war.... but we didn't hear Dave whingeing then, did we?
It seem the Tories can hand it out in the war of the classes. But they seem mighty reluctant to take it....
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Your argument about the sheet metal worker from shettleston might hold some water if he'd turned out to be anything like an effective MP for his constituency, or a half-decent speaker - rather than the one forever to be remembered for his failure to deal with MPs expense scandal and efforts to protect that cosy wee club.
ReplyDeleteYou may not have liked Mr Martin. Personally, I have no opinion on his effectiveness as an MP, but as speaker he didn't have the polish of a public school boy. The point here is that he was nastilly attacked on class grounds by Tory MPs, long before the expenses scandal broke out.
ReplyDeleteBut that's secondary in this context. The fact is, the Tories want us to believe that a bunch of kids who grew up and went to the same school, university and social club have become, by some miraculous selection mechanism, the best bunch of young men to run the country.
When challenged they cry "clas war!", but they are guilty of the same themselves.
"Personally, I have no opinion on his effectiveness as an MP"
ReplyDeleteThat's a shame, maybe you don't have access to the facts about his constituency.
I think you can take it as read that on virtually every measure of any relevance to standard of living it scores way below the national average, and in some cases sets new lows: Life expectancy, employment, smoking, cancer deaths, education, literacy...
There's an excellent photo journal here where you can decide for yourself how well the former sheet metal worker served his constituents:
http://www.scottishreview.net/IMcLeod166.html
Jim
ReplyDeleteam I detecting you sliding of the subject here?
Whatever you may think of Shettleston, the Tories were snide and condescending to Martin because he was obviously working class.
It seems they can hand it out but can't take it.
Do you agree?
No I don't agree, I think Mick Martin is all that is wrong with Labour. Just because some working class wide boy slithers his way up the Labour party ranks it doesn't make him any more capable of fulfilling a representative role than the limit of his talents. Alas, for us all it was in the role of Speaker of the house of commons that the limits of his talents were exposed.
ReplyDeleteJim,
ReplyDeleteyou seem determined to keep the focus off the Tories. Why don't you agree that the Tories can hand it out and not take it?
I used Michael martin as an example because the Tories dissed him because of his background and his accent and what they would call his lack of social graces (defined by them). It could have been any working class MP without a cut glass accent and an Oxbridge degree, but when it is pointed out that 40% of the Tory leadership is from the same (much smaller) social class, and many of them attended a single school and university and club at the same time, somehow that's not a class isssue.
I don't care what class any particular individual comes from: we're a' Jock Tampson's bairns as far as that goes. But that means I don't treat any particular person in any particular way based on their accent. It depends on their person and personality and how they behave towards me and towards society.
As I pointed out above, the main issue is the unlikelihood that this group of people who are all from the same (very rich) social background, grew up together, went to the same schools and university and social club together, have turned out to be, by some statistical miracle, the very best people to run the country.
It's as if myself and five mates from St Swithin's Secondary circa 1972, Reid Kerr College and St John's Under 19's football team were to be promoted as the next PM, Chancellor, Home Secretary, Foreign Secretary and Minister of Defence.
It's just not credible.
And that's the aspect of class that I don't like: that the 90% of us who are from ordinary backgrounds are somehow unable to form our own government (because we don't know how to dress and talk and which fork to use for foi gras) while the 2% from Chelsea, not only are the best there is, but resent having their common backgrounds and interests highlighted.
AS far as I am concerned, Cameron's comments translate as: "Don't declare class war on me, you bunch of smelly Oiks!".
Sorry? Are these the David Cameron comments that you are alluding to:
ReplyDeleteIn an interview with the BBC’s Politics Show, Mr Cameron said: "I never hide my background or where I'm from or anything about my life like that.
"My view is very simple... that what people are interested in is not where you come from but where you're going to, what you've got to offer, what you've got to offer the country.
"Now if Gordon Brown and [Lord] Mandelson and the rest, if they want to fight a class war, fine, go for it. It doesn't work.
"It's a petty, spiteful, stupid thing to do but if that's what they want to do, go ahead."
It doesn't say anything about smelly oiks there to me, but perhaps St John's Under 19's weren't overly focused on reading comprehension?
Don't apologise Jim, you haven't done anything particularly egregious yet. At least not on this thread...
ReplyDeleteYes, I believe they are those comments.
"I never hide my background or where I'm from or anything about my life like that."
Just call me Dave. And of course call my good friend and Tory candidate and fellow millionaire, from Chelsea as it happens, Annunciata Rees-Mogg, just plain Nancy Mogg. What's sneaky about that?
"My view is very simple... that what people are interested in is not where you come from but where you're going to, what you've got to offer, what you've got to offer the country."
Dave gives good platitude, does he not?
"Now if Gordon Brown and [Lord] Mandelson and the rest, if they want to fight a class war, fine, go for it. It doesn't work."
Try it, big boy, if you think you're hard enough..
"It's a petty, spiteful, stupid thing to do but if that's what they want to do, go ahead."
Meanwhile me and George and Zac (when he stops being non-dom) and Boris and all the other Bullingdon boys will conduct our non-class war. Vote for us and we'll make sure that 18 members of the Tory front bench get millions back through our inheritence tax wheeze. And please, please, don't be ignoramus enough to call that class war. It's only fair that we rich chaps get to keep more of our money in the recession....
Power, dontcha love it...?
"And yes it is pretty amazing that me and my friends have turned out to be the cleverest people in the country... Dave, George, Boris.. easy to believe, is it not?"
Ah, so you think that they are only in it for an Inheritance tax wheeze. Of course if they were really, really clever they could just have worked in the financial sector, deregulated by Brown to put undreamt of riches in bankers laps, or even better sleazed their way up the civil service to a gold plated pension, unassailable rights and outrageous salary.
ReplyDeleteI see that Gordon Brown wasn't entirely playing to an empty auditorium when he played that class war card right enough. They're all toffs, so they must be in it for themselves... You've got them nailed, for sure. Thank goodness we've got the reliable, entirely not in it for themselves Labour party to fall back on.
UK and Scottish Politics - a Sensible Perspective
ReplyDeleteMuch more jaundiced, old school, Labour class warrior in this thread though...
Not true.
ReplyDeleteThis thread is only about "class war", because David Cameron who used that phrase ...
I don't think it's about class war in the old sense that everything lower class was great and everything upper class was outdated and decrepit.
If you think that speaking for the majority and cutting through the minority rhetoric to reveal a truth about the 2% who currently control the Conservatives is "class war", you're in agreement with Dave.
I think it's about the sheer improbability that the 0.000001% of the 2% that is Cameron and his friends being the best people to run the country...
I'm interested that you want to keep the argument going, but also want to keep the focus off Cameron.
It's an interesting psychology, Jim.
"Ah, so you think that they are only in it for an Inheritance tax wheeze."
ReplyDeleteExactly the opposite of what I said, which was...
"Of course it doesn't matter what school any particular individual went to: even Eton will produce the occasional outstanding individual. But when half the Shadow cabinet went to the same school, at the same time, and then went to the same university at the same time, and while at university they were all members of the same club at the same time, and then the went and joined the same party at the same time, and now we are supposed to swallow the argument that these half-a-dozen blokes that went to the same school, university, club at the same time are, by some miracle, the half-a-dozen people in the country best qualified to form the next government....
It does stretch credulity a teeny bit, does it not?"
Of course the Inheritence Tax wheeze is their only known tax policy, so there's not a lot else concrete to comment on...
"I'm interested that you want to keep the argument going, but also want to keep the focus off Cameron."
ReplyDeleteYou should pay more heed to it being about exactly the things that you are saying.
"Ah, so you think that they are only in it for an Inheritance tax wheeze."
Exactly the opposite of what I said, which was...
Hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but it's exactly what you said when you paraphrased Cameron with
"Vote for us and we'll make sure that 18 members of the Tory front bench get millions back through our inheritence tax wheeze."
I don't really know what argument you think I'm carrying on but I do think we've exposed your line of "UK and Scottish Politics - a Sensible Perspective" for what it is... Dave-esque platitude. A nice sensible perspective would be able to see beyond the candidate's background and perhaps remember what it said not 2 posts earlier.
No Jim, it's not "exactly" what I said.. I have said a number of things, including...
ReplyDelete"Of course it doesn't matter what school any particular individual went to: even Eton will produce the occasional outstanding individual. But when half the Shadow cabinet went to the same school, at the same time, and then went to the same university at the same time, and while at university they were all members of the same club at the same time, and then the went and joined the same party at the same time, and now we are supposed to swallow the argument that these half-a-dozen blokes that went to the same school, university, club at the same time are, by some miracle, the half-a-dozen people in the country best qualified to form the next government....
It does stretch credulity a teeny bit, does it not?"
Which you have ignored.
and
"I used Michael martin as an example because the Tories dissed him because of his background and his accent and what they would call his lack of social graces (defined by them). It could have been any working class MP without a cut glass accent and an Oxbridge degree, but when it is pointed out that 40% of the Tory leadership is from the same (much smaller) social class, and many of them attended a single school and university and club at the same time, somehow that's not a class isssue.
I don't care what class any particular individual comes from: we're a' Jock Tampson's bairns as far as that goes. But that means I don't treat any particular person in any particular way based on their accent. It depends on their person and personality and how they behave towards me and towards society.
As I pointed out above, the main issue is the unlikelihood that this group of people who are all from the same (very rich) social background, grew up together, went to the same schools and university and social club together, have turned out to be, by some statistical miracle, the very best people to run the country.
It's as if myself and five mates from St Swithin's Secondary circa 1972, Reid Kerr College and St John's Under 19's football team were to be promoted as the next PM, Chancellor, Home Secretary, Foreign Secretary and Minister of Defence."
Which you also ignored.
And
"This thread is only about "class war", because David Cameron who used that phrase ...
I don't think it's about class war in the old sense that everything lower class was great and everything upper class was outdated and decrepit.
If you think that speaking for the majority and cutting through the minority rhetoric to reveal a truth about the 2% who currently control the Conservatives is "class war", you're in agreement with Dave.
I think it's about the sheer improbability that the 0.000001% of the 2% that is Cameron and his friends being the best people to run the country..."
Which you ignored as well.
You concentrated on both of the illustrative examples I used in support the main argument, while ignoring the main argument itself.
Probably because you can think of no effective riposte.
But that's all right. Nobody in their right mind would defend the proposition that a few folk who were in the same class at school and the same year in university and in the same clubs and in the same political party, are by some chance the best few people to be at the top of the government of an advanced country and economy.
I make the polite assumption that you are in your right mind, and it is therefore perfectly logical for you to either;
i. agree with me, (which do not appear to want to do).
or
2. ignore the main point and concentrate on side issues, which is what you have done so far.
I took issue with both of the illustrative examples and put them to the sword as they deserved. The rest is pap.
ReplyDeleteAre the Tories actually campaigning on "Hey we all went to the same school"?
No, it's Labour making an issue out of the fact that they all went to the same school, one hated by the petty class warrior for the supposed privilege it carries.
Eton does have something of a tradition of churning out Prime ministers though I suppose, some of them actually quite good as it happens...
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/etons-old-boy-network-518455.html
You are projecting the caricature of a toff on the Conservatives in the hope that people won't notice how hopelessly they have been let down by this Labour government. You may want to carry on with this little game of Brown's, trying to focus on background with the politics of envy as your motivation. It simply doesn't work though. Indeed, it's petty and spiteful.
"I took issue with both of the illustrative examples and put them to the sword as they deserved"
ReplyDeleteJim you got your sentence construction slightly wrong there. You missed out the words "because I thought I could" which should replace "and" in the above sentence.
I cited Micheal Martin's treatment by the Tories as an example of the casual class condescension they spray about. You responded on his record as an MP, which I have said nothing about.
I then pointed out, in response to your quote of Dave saying the raising of Eton was petty etc., that the only tax policy theTories have will benefit millionaires like themselves and nobody else.
You did not adddress that point either, just called it class war (like Dave, actually). It may and it may not be, but it is true. You won't deny it.
"The rest is pap."
The rest is...
"Of course it doesn't matter what school any particular individual went to: even Eton will produce the occasional outstanding individual. But when half the Shadow cabinet went to the same school, at the same time, and then went to the same university at the same time, and while at university they were all members of the same club at the same time, and then the went and joined the same party at the same time, and now we are supposed to swallow the argument that these half-a-dozen blokes that went to the same school, university, club at the same time are, by some miracle, the half-a-dozen people in the country best qualified to form the next government....
It does stretch credulity a teeny bit, does it not?"
an idea which I expresed in several different ways and which you have no answer for.
Or maybe your definition of "pap" is "something that Jim has no answer for.."
Are the Tories actually campaigning on "Hey we all went to the same school"?
No, it's Labour making an issue out of the fact that they all went to the same school."
Yep. That's my point Jim. You got there eventually.
They did all go to the same school at the same time and it's beyond logic or statistical probablility, therefore, that they have grown into the best group of people to govern the country (see above passim).
it's got nothing to do with class war.
I see new Labour policy :
ReplyDelete"It's statistically improbable that the best people to lead the country all went to the same school, so vote for us because we went to different schools" is it?
Hmmm, it's a bit thin.
Let's face it, the best people to run the country probably aren't putting themselves forward to run the country so we're left with a choice between the current Labour leadership, who have demonstrated weekly since Tony Blair exited stage left to start earning his 'deserved' millions how incapable they are and this Tory opposition, many of whom happen to have gone to a school reknowned for churning out politicians.
Still, Braveheart, you pour your energies into it. If you want to believe Baron Martin of Spingburn was being attacked purely because of his Glasgow accent, you carry on with that little gripe, I don't doubt you'll have plenty of other chips to keep you well balanced.
It is a bit of a shame that the Tory 'toffs' turned out to be correct and he was just a bit incompetent and useless at his job, which is where I'm inclined to believe the disatisfaction with the disgraced, yet still benighted, former member for Glasgow NE started.
As for the rest of your wee story, it is indeed statistically improbable that the best placed people to run the country all went to the same school, university and club... Congratulations! Your statistics is spot on. For a gold star, how many times did you cut and paste the same point in this thread?
Bit late to the party here, but which Tory MPs attacked Michael Martin for his background? Quentin Letts certainly did (and I think by doing so helped to sustain Martin's ignominious career), but if any Tory MPs also did it passed me by.
ReplyDeleteI do remember Labour's Lord Snape opining, during the previous Martin scandal, that it was perfectly in order for the public to fund taxis to take Mrs Martin to the shops ("Is the Speaker's wife supposed to queue for the bus?"), and that she was owed "deference". Sounds like class war to me.
Colin,
ReplyDeleteit's the opposite of class war. The suggestion is that Mrs Martin may have deserved some deference by virtue of her position as wife of the politician in the 2nd highest elected post in our democracy.
Makes sense to me. More than assumptions that attending a particular school or club has any merit attached whatsoever.